jeudi 18 janvier 2018

Why Jews shouldn't settle east of the Green line?

A settler named Akiva asks:
"Why do you believe Jews shouldn't be over the Green line?"

My answer:
Because
a) Settlements in occupied territories are against international law.
b) I think that no solution will be possible if those who call themselves "Palestinians" are not granted a continuous viable territory.
c) There is no reason to settle east of the green line, many areas west of the green line need Jewish settlement, like Galilea and, most of all the Neguev.
d) Because public aid to settlers impoverishes Israeli society which has the highest poverty rate of all OCDE countries and where, for instance, Holocaust survivors have to beg for food and the rate of child poverty is alarming.
e) Because these dire economic conditions hinder aliyah (60% of French Jews that make aliyah flow back to France for economic reasons).
f) Last but not least, because settlements smear Israel's image all around the wold and give a valid pretext to antizionists and antisemites to hate Israel and the Jews.

His answer:
"Thank you so much for getting back to me. I appreciate your taking time to respond.
a) Not sure which international law you are referring to.. It’s not exactly occupied since no country claims the land. Jordan which occupied the land abrogated their claim.
b) Viability of the solution, apparently a two state solution is not terribly viable either – the sides are unable to get anywhere despite 25 years of negotiations around that approach. What we have reached is apparently some point where each side can live with this and every move in a different direction will make things worse.
c) There are historical, geographical, religious, military and economic reasons to settle around Jerusalem in Gush Etzion, to settle in the Jordan Valley, and to settle in the Shomron, without settlements these areas would fall under arab rule, and we would likely have the same consequences as we had in Gaza – namely home grown rockets manufactured (with or without support of the local government). Settlement in the Galil or Negev is more a factor of transportation and access than people who have moved to the Shomron. Someone who lives in Efrat – 10 minutes from Jerusalem would not have settled in Mitzpeh ramon or Arad.
d) The Israeli society is not impoverished. If you take out the Charedi population who make a conscious decision not to work, the numbers look a lot better. Holocaust survivors do not have to beg for food, in addition to a pension from Germany, national insurance, and accumulated pensions from work, there are a small minority who fall between the cracks – mostly those without children to care for them. Old age homes are free from those who don’t have the means to pay. French people leaving, is not due to pure financial reasons, it’s not easy to immigrate, and it is probably easier financially and language wise in Canada or England.. part of the problem is that housing is so expensive.. because so many people can afford small apartments that cost $600,000.
f) People who hate Israel, hated Israel before 1967.. When Nasser marched his tanks into the Siani desert in 1967 and closed the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.. all the arab world was clapping, and dancing, and chanting death to Israel. If anything, they hated us more before 1967, before settlements"

My answer:
a)"Not sure which international law you are referring to.."
4th Geneva Convention: "Article 49(6) of the convention: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”
b) "Viability of the solution, apparently a two state solution is not terribly viable either" I haven't said the contrary. That does not mean that no other solution is possible (For instance, a Palestine Free Associated State -like Pto. Rico to the US'- without army, free to associate with Israel or Jordan or both).
c) "c)  There are historical, geographical, religious, military and economic reasons to settle around Jerusalem in Gush Etzion, to settle in the Jordan Valley, and to settle in the Shomron, without settlements these areas."  I keep the military ones. TSAHAL would do a much better and less expensive job without having to protect settlements and settlers.
d) "The Israeli society is not impoverished." Israel only does a little better than Costa Rica and South Africa, see https://data.oecd.org/inequality/poverty-rate.htm#indicator-chart


"Holocaust survivors do not have to beg for food,..there are a small minority who fall between the cracks – mostly those without children to care for them." It's to this small minority to which I'm refering. It's a shame and a pity. This should not be by any means.
"small apartments that cost $600,000." That's a fortune. I bought a small apartment in a nice area in downtown West Berlin for $130k and the cost of living (food, clothing, restaurants) is half of what it is in Israel. Aliyah is for the rich or the masochists.
"French people leaving, is not due to pure financial reasons, it’s not easy to immigrate" That's very true, but when you ask them they all blame the economy. Moreover, it is almost impossible for French dentist or physician to exerce his trade in Israel.
Settlements are a disgrace.
f) "People who hate Israel, hated Israel before 1967.. When Nasser marched his tanks into the Siani desert in 1967 and closed the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.. all the arab world was clapping, and dancing, and chanting death to Israel." All the Arab world but not most American and Western Universities. All non-muslim African countries had good relations, Asian and Latin-American as well. There was no BDS movement and nobody was saying that Israel was an Apartheid State. I am old enough to remember how it was back then and how it is now and I know that it is much worse now. All of my Jewish friends are against the settlements (and the gentiles of course), most of my Jewish friends find Israel's actions in Gaza unjustified (to say nothing about the gentiles). Antisemitsm (which I don't blame entirely on the settlers) has grown much worse.


His answer:
a) Thanks for the quotation. I don't believe it applies if the area is not occupied - there is no country claiming the land. (I'm still unclear why the Palestinians haven't declared a country).  I look forward to annexation, at least of certain parts.
b) There have been different solutions offered. Dr. Keidar and Caroline Glick each offer solutions; though I think the equilibrium reached in the post 2nd intifada years seems to keep the relative peace.  It's a balancing act, and the Palestinians aren't driving their leaders toward better solutions.
c) I disagree, without the settlements it would be much easier to let the situation get to a point like in Gaza. As it is, there is only a small percentage of the arab population who see our soldiers. Almost all of the population centers are under PA., Also, accepting that Jews shouldn't be Hebron or Gush Etzion is accepting a return to 67 lines..which brought a war on Israel.  - the hatred for Israel started long before there were any "settlements" .. and treatment of Jews in arab lands was never a picnic long before zionism.

My answer:
The mistake in Gaza was to retire Tsahal and give Hamas full control of ports and airports.
Retiring the settlers did no harm.
Cisjordan and Gaza belonged to Jordan and Egypt.
It's much later that these countries gave up their claims to the benefit of the PA.
By the way, Jordan has not given up its claims over Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem and Cisjordan of which it still is a "guardian"
Nobody is arguing about Muslim Arabs hate of Jews and for that matter, of all unbelievers.

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